Rust v2 overhaul suggestion

[Excalibur]

Hello, I am excalibur. Pratically nobody in here knows me because I am a new player and haven't done much to communicate with the community at all (Lone wolf).
There's gonna be a huge wall of text incoming. I urge you all to read it and tell me what you think about it, why you like/didn't like it. Thanks ^-^

I have been playing the game and analyzing every aspect I of this modded rust I could get my hands on. Tbh, this rust is fun, it is a really great spinoff from the original rust which starts to not really feel like rust at all, and for that you have my thanks.

Now let's get back to the original topic. I want to talk about many things but first things first. Progression. (And how this server is NOT meant for lone wolves)

Here's my PoV on things currently done with rust so far
Early game : All of the currently available schems, legendary weapons, kevlar sets, misc drops (flares, c4s etc) (Due to rng you can literally get any of these at your first arrival on a bandit base)
Mid game : Prot 4/XX kev sets and a shitload of bullets because these won't let you die unless they break. (This requires you to go to better places for them (the boss fights, zone etc))
Late game : Just craft stacks upon stacks of c4s and raid bases? I'm not really sure what the hell is supposed to be in the endgame.

From this we can conclude, the main objetive of this rust version is just to get yourself as OP as possible and raid everything. (Which is why servers get reset every 2 months) However, going with this way of playing means 2 things.
1: This server follows a "The rich get richer while the poor gets poorer" way of thinking.
2: Lone wolves are pratically screwed. In pvps they get bombarded and in boss fights/zone they get bombarded. Also, they can't build a giant faction base without being bombarded. Did I mention they just get bombarded?

So here comes my first bit of suggestion. Adding a progression system and overhauling unecessary mechanics from the game. This will be scattered through some suggestions marked in BOLD.
First off, armor. Having enchanted armor is a cool take on the whole defensive system, but isn't it a bit too much? I have seen videos with guys using op armors and basically the guy that got the most procs out of unbreaking won. (Again, RNG) Early game combat feels kind of nice, but late game combat does not feel nice or rewarding at all. (To me atleast, feel free to share your opinion).
So in my honest opinion, you should make armors only have up to 1 style of protection on them. (So basically, you can choose prot 4 for increased endurance against everything or projectile protection for additional protection against guns but vulnerable to melee weapons)
What will this do? For starters, it'll make the players have to choose which type of protection they want. Prot is usefull for everything but far weaker than projectile protection when facing guns. Also this means that melee weapons can actually be viable and not used exclusively as a way of knocking people back or just mob farming.
This also means that without being able to stack both protections, you can actually die in a fight while the armor is still intact. (Which means pvp battles will actually mean something lmao)
Next up, the values of protection. This one will be kept short, just remove XX enchants. They are pointless, provide a very OP protection that should not exist and just further gaps the space between rich and poor. And with the way I am gonna suggest to overhaul the economy you will not be needing fillers on the most dangerous zones/boss fights.
Now, C4s and base protection. C4s are being handed out like its candy in this server and because of that, bases needs to be built like a skyscrapper in order to actually survive if you are even the tiniest bit known in the community. Shouldn't this be tweaked? Incase you want to, here's my suggestion.
First off, reduce the amount of stonebrick schematics for fuck sake. Having walls that resist 6 c4s just makes an excuse for you to hand out c4s to everyone. Take away the tumor and its symptoms will be taken care off.
So basically, first you reduce the amount of stonebrick protection the game currently offers, by making the strongest one provide with 2 c4 blast protection. (I know this seems low, but bear with me on this, you'll see why at the end when I explain all of my mechanics change and how they flow together)
Next up, C4s. This one, again, will be kept simple and short. It will be easier to get c4 from end game content and ALOT MORE expensive to craft it. This one will, too, be explained later in the thread.
By making these changes, you are closing the huge gap between new players/lone wolves and veteran players/big factions. This way, it provides with a way of people to actually compete with others, as this type of game should be. You get OP doing OP runs, sure, but you still need to fear the weak people. That is what rust is all about, everyone and everything can and WILL kill or raid you.

Now comes the BIG PART. How to make these changes work on the current setup? By doing the following.
Let's break the game down by 3 pieces again. (Again, this is my speculation. I have no idea what you guys consider what, but to me this is what makes sense to me)
Early game: Resource gathering. This is where new people stand in. New people shouldnt be able to tackle on bandits or zombie infested places until they are strong enough to do so. Giving them tools to do so this early all while encouraging them to do so because RNG favours the fools is just wrong.
Mid game: Bandit and Infested zones. This one is pretty self explanatory. Anyway, you can encourage these zones as mid game farm fests by doing the following.
Changing aton of schematics to not drop on these zones (Namely, explosives,c4s, rockets Iron plated stonebrick, titanium stonebrick etc)
This is where most people will spend their lives on. It only makes sense to prepare them for the real world. This is where they'll get the weapons needed, the armor, etc. This shouldn't be the place to gather c4s at all, as that makes even newbies able to just cheese their way into an inventory filled with c4s. This is why the current economy favours stacks upon stacks of c4s, they're just being handed out.
Late game: Zone, Boss fights, Supply flares.
This is where the fun really begins. Instead of being rewarded with a shitload of OP armor, in this one, you'll be rewarded with the now almost extinct usefull SCHEMATICS (c4s, explosives, etc), ACTUAL c4s and rockets, decent armor (Up to prot 4 with ONLY 1 ENCHANT AS MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY). By making these items scarce in other environments, you have made them valuable, and since they are balanced by themselves, you can add these to the endgame dungeons without needing to add OP equipment like XX protection. Also, this will be the main source of c4s for the community.

Important Note : C4 recipe should be changed to include titanium and increase most material requirements to 2x the price. Make it actually hard to craft but not impossible. Due to base defense being reduced by a tremendous amount, c4s are no longer required to be handed out. This will increase their worth and actually reward players who can farm them all while not leaving new players with no way of raiding seen as most bases will now be more vulnerable.

What will these changes do to the current server and how do they work together?
Simple. Lets start off with the change to bases defense. ALL SCHEMATICS GIVE 1 C4 PROTECTION BASE DEFENSE. ONLY TITANIUM PLATED STONE BRICK GIVES 2 C4 BLAST PROTECTION. ALSO, C4 NOW BLOWS THROUGH 4 LAYERS INSTEAD OF 2.
How does this work? With the scarcity of c4s, your base will now be much more vulnerable in order to balance it out. You can build a huge base if you want to, but really, c4 now blowing up alot more than just 2 layers will just mean that even the huge factions will be easily raided. So yeah, knock yourselves out.
Titanium plated stonebricks can resist 2 of the most valuable c4s now, which means they are a top priority aswell, however, because of all the previous available schematics (Reinforced stonebricks, Iron plated stonebricks, etc), you're gonna need ATON OF IRON and SCHEMATICS in order to build them. Because all of those reinforced, iron plated stonebricks ONLY PROVIDE WITH 1 DEFENSE EACH, they are used as a filler to add progression to your base defenses, all while giving big factions the opportunity to invest into their base and make it last TWICE AS LONG.

Because pvp is now balanced by the fact that even the top players are vulnerable to something (Protection 4 means they can be hit with anything and take some damage, projectile protection 4 means they can be hit with melee weapons hard), you can now actually secure your base by killing them and not depend on a huge 200x256x200 skyscrapper.
The server has been tuned to be more fight oriented and less OP-ness required. Its still the same thing, more c4s will be handed out than what most bases can keep up (considering the fact that c4 has now twice the radius too) so there won't be any unraidable bases, but because of the way the economy has been made, you don't have to depend on OP shit like protection XX for the endgame dungeons, meaning you also have more freedom to add more content and add or remove more walls into the progression.
Also, lone wolves finally have a shot at playing the game. (They're still at a heavy disadvantage, but atleast they can raid and kill people now). And new players will not be discouraged when they see stacks of c4s flying around all while seeing ginormous sky scrappers impossible to raid.

Hope you liked my suggestion and I'll be here waiting for arguments on whether or not this could work!

With best regards,
Excalibur.

 

[YoussofHD]

Rare to see someone actually taking the time to make a thoughtful suggestion. I like responding to people who put thought into their suggestions. Let me just start off by saying that your suggestions are HUGE (Good to see that you've acknowleded that in the title) and it's very unlikely that we straight up implement them like this. They are good suggestions and well thought out, but you have to remember that making such huge changes to a system that is already somewhat successful is extremely dangerous for us as we may lose a huge amount of players.

Our approach to large updates like the ones you mentioned is to slowly inch closer to them by making minor updates here and there. By doing this we don't have to take a leap of faith and hope for the best plus we can easily rollback on updates that don't go as planned without straight up reverting it. Also, note that we try to keep updates as simplistic as possible so that everybody has an equal opportunity at understanding how certain mechanics/features work.

I'll respond to each part of your suggestion using spoilers (Click them to view). I'll keep your bolded parts in the quotes just so it's easier to look at and not just a huge block of text. I'll try to keep my responses short.

Spoiler: 1/4 (Your POV)

Here's my PoV on things currently done with rust so far
Early game : All of the currently available schems, legendary weapons, kevlar sets, misc drops (flares, c4s etc) (Due to rng you can literally get any of these at your first arrival on a bandit base)
Mid game : Prot 4/XX kev sets and a shitload of bullets because these won't let you die unless they break. (This requires you to go to better places for them (the boss fights, zone etc))
Late game : Just craft stacks upon stacks of c4s and raid bases? I'm not really sure what the hell is supposed to be in the endgame.

From this we can conclude, the main objetive of this rust version is just to get yourself as OP as possible and raid everything. (Which is why servers get reset every 2 months) However, going with this way of playing means 2 things.
1: This server follows a "The rich get richer while the poor gets poorer" way of thinking.
2: Lone wolves are pratically screwed. In pvps they get bombarded and in boss fights/zone they get bombarded. Also, they can't build a giant faction base without being bombarded. Did I mention they just get bombarded?

You've got a good general idea of how we see early/mid game. Late game at the moment mostly revolves around raiding and PvPing. We're currently looking at ways to add more content to the early/late game with more focus on the late game.

Most of the game mode is designed around team play, which is why solo players don't stand much of a chance. People generally don't travel out in the wild without a team. This was one of the many reasons we added Duels. Duels are a great way to engage in a fair PvP (1v1/2v2/etc).. We haven't entirely forgotten about solo players. Every so often we release a few updates that are useful for everybody, but more useful for solo players. Just recently, we added the dungeon update which should help solo players the most especially with the early game.

Spoiler: 2/4 (Armor/PvP)

First off, armor...

So in my honest opinion, you should make armors only have up to 1 style of protection on them...

What will this do?...

Next up, the values of protection...

Because pvp is now balanced by the fact that even the top players are vulnerable to something (Protection 4 means they can be hit with anything and take some damage, projectile protection 4 means they can be hit with melee weapons hard), you can now actually secure your base by killing them and not depend on a huge 200x256x200 skyscrapper...

The main problem with this suggestion is you're forgetting that everything in the game is balanced around the current protection system. So without even commenting on how good or bad of a suggestion this is, a change like this would require A TON of rebalancing for so many things from how damage is calculated all the way to even how builds are set up (We keep the current armor system in mind when building things for the map). Another thing to think about is also how the economy set up by the community will shake up. The main question, in this case, would be, is this really worth the hassle?

I personally do not like this part of the suggestion, but I do see where you're coming from. A better way to go about something like this would be to have it so certain enchantments cannot appear on the same piece together. Implementing something like this is still a lot of work and requires a lot of planning.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "XX enchants" so I don't have anything to say for this.

Spoiler: 3/4 (C4/Bases/Looting)

Now, C4s and base protection...

So basically, first you reduce the amount of stonebrick protection the game currently offers, by making the strongest one provide with 2 c4 blast protection. (I know this seems low, but bear with me on this, you'll see why at the end when I explain all of my mechanics change and how they flow together)

Next up, C4s...

Important Note : C4 recipe should be changed to include titanium and increase most material requirements to 2x the price. Make it actually hard to craft but not impossible. Due to base defense being reduced by a tremendous amount, c4s are no longer required to be handed out. This will increase their worth and actually reward players who can farm them all while not leaving new players with no way of raiding seen as most bases will now be more vulnerable...

What will these changes do to the current server and how do they work together?
Simple. Lets start off with the change to bases defense. ALL SCHEMATICS GIVE 1 C4 PROTECTION BASE DEFENSE. ONLY TITANIUM PLATED STONE BRICK GIVES 2 C4 BLAST PROTECTION. ALSO, C4 NOW BLOWS THROUGH 4 LAYERS INSTEAD OF 2...

Titanium plated stonebricks can resist 2 of the most valuable c4s now, which means they are a top priority aswell, however, because of all the previous available schematics (Reinforced stonebricks, Iron plated stonebricks, etc), you're gonna need ATON OF IRON and SCHEMATICS in order to build them. Because all of those reinforced, iron plated stonebricks ONLY PROVIDE WITH 1 DEFENSE EACH... ...TWICE AS LONG.

As it stands right now, C4 is very easy to obtain and bases are not able to properly keep up with how fast people are able to farm. I get the impression that you feel bases are too hard to raid. This may be true when looking at solo players and smaller teams, but when we look at the bigger picture and zoom all the way out, we can see that bases at the moment are at a HUGE disadvantage.

I can't say too much about this. Just know that we're not entirely satisfied with the whole C4/Base building system right now and we are looking at ways to change it. The end goal is to enable base builders to successfully keep up with the amount of C4 being farmed and at the same time not make raiding impossible for smaller teams and solo players. We want to keep base building and C4 gathering equally easy.

Suggestions like this one are good because they help give us more ideas.

Spoiler: 4/4 (Conclusion)

Now comes the BIG PART. How to make these changes work on the current setup? By doing the following...

Early game: Resource gathering...

Mid game: Bandit and Infested zones...

Changing aton of schematics to not drop on these zones (Namely, explosives,c4s, rockets Iron plated stonebrick, titanium stonebrick etc)...

Late game: Zone, Boss fights, Supply flares...

By making these items scarce in other environments, you have made them valuable, and since they are balanced by themselves, you can add these to the endgame dungeons without needing to add OP equipment like XX protection. Also, this will be the main source of c4s for the community...

Most of the things mentioned here I already answered above. I'll just add that zombie radiation zones are actually part of the early game and that is where we expect all new players to go for loot. Bandit bases are meant to be sort of mid-game oriented with slightly better loot, however, both places can easily be cleared by new players. This is intentional and it is a very important part of keeping the loot fair. Everybody has the exact same odds of getting every single item in the game.

The two main things we're thinking about right now is C4 versus base building and extending the early/late game. We have a lot of updates in mind that'll hopefully help with this.

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Excalibur]

Thanks for the fast reply youssof!

Regarding your answers, I'd like to add a few more opinions of my own.

Spoiler: First part

Rare to see someone actually taking the time to make a thoughtful suggestion. I like responding to people who put thought into their suggestions. Let me just start off by saying that your suggestions are HUGE (Good to see that you've acknowleded that in the title) and it's very unlikely that we straight up implement them like this. They are good suggestions and well thought out, but you have to remember that making such huge changes to a system that is already somewhat successful is extremely dangerous for us as we may lose a huge amount of players.

Our approach to large updates like the ones you mentioned is to slowly inch closer to them by making minor updates here and there. By doing this we don't have to take a leap of faith and hope for the best plus we can easily rollback on updates that don't go as planned without straight up reverting it. Also, note that we try to keep updates as simplistic as possible so that everybody has an equal opportunity at understanding how certain mechanics/features work.

I am aware it would take many months in order to implement the features I have suggested, big change always come with big costs and big opportunities.
Which is why a community-driven poll is always the answer to such changes. Let your players know how they feel about the current economy, ask them what they would change the most (pvp, bases, raids etc) and then you present them with your answers (or in this case, my suggestions) and see if they like it. If the players vote positively, then the change, although big, will not be costly. I understand completely that you guys will or will not implemente something/anything of what I have and I am fine with that. I'm here to suggest things, not boss you around.

Spoiler: Second part

You've got a good general idea of how we see early/mid game. Late game at the moment mostly revolves around raiding and PvPing. We're currently looking at ways to add more content to the early/late game with more focus on the late game.

Most of the game mode is designed around team play, which is why solo players don't stand much of a chance. People generally don't travel out in the wild without a team. This was one of the many reasons we added Duels. Duels are a great way to engage in a fair PvP (1v1/2v2/etc).. We haven't entirely forgotten about solo players. Every so often we release a few updates that are useful for everybody, but more useful for solo players. Just recently, we added the dungeon update which should help solo players the most especially with the early game.

To be honest, it will always be difficult to balance a team game around solo players. Most of the changes I have suggested doesn't really help solo players as much as I hoped they would. Anyway, if you guys need someone to go around shooting ideas wild and forth, don't be afraid to summon me.

Spoiler: Third part

The main problem with this suggestion is you're forgetting that everything in the game is balanced around the current protection system. So without even commenting on how good or bad of a suggestion this is, a change like this would require A TON of rebalancing for so many things from how damage is calculated all the way to even how builds are set up (We keep the current armor system in mind when building things for the map). Another thing to think about is also how the economy set up by the community will shake up. The main question, in this case, would be, is this really worth the hassle?

I personally do not like this part of the suggestion, but I do see where you're coming from. A better way to go about something like this would be to have it so certain enchantments cannot appear on the same piece together. Implementing something like this is still a lot of work and requires a lot of planning.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "XX enchants" so I don't have anything to say for this.

Even if it is impossible to implement the way I have originally suggested to, I'd really like to find better ways to pvp. Currently, this feels like regular factions pvping where you basically ran full AXE mode (with mcmmo) and just won fights because axing your opponents made them lose far more durability than using swords, and because everybody was already op AF, they wouldnt take any damage at all. I just don't like that style of pvp at all as it takes away actual strategy in place of just plain RNG or the one with the most medkits wins. I know other ways of balancing this, but it all requires technical workarounds so I'm not sure how far you guys are willing to go.

Regarding XX enchants, I haven't really gone to explore the zone or anything like that, so I never got to that stage, however, I have been seeing people in the chat bragging how they got "XX kevlar sets" and it kind of looked like it was protection XX. (I have played on servers with those on, it was not fun). Now that I think about it, it may have been a kind of slang for how many maxed enchants it has. Apologies for the confusion.

Spoiler: Fourth part

As it stands right now, C4 is very easy to obtain and bases are not able to properly keep up with how fast people are able to farm. I get the impression that you feel bases are too hard to raid. This may be true when looking at solo players and smaller teams, but when we look at the bigger picture and zoom all the way out, we can see that bases at the moment are at a HUGE disadvantage.

I can't say too much about this. Just know that we're not entirely satisfied with the whole C4/Base building system right now and we are looking at ways to change it. The end goal is to enable base builders to successfully keep up with the amount of C4 being farmed and at the same time not make raiding impossible for smaller teams and solo players. We want to keep base building and C4 gathering equally easy.

Suggestions like this one are good because they help give us more ideas.

To be fair, it's gonna be a long walk in order to do that. My idea wasn't perfect, but I'm glad it has helped you get more ideas. If you need me for this too, I've got more ideas to share

Spoiler: Fifth part

Most of the things mentioned here I already answered above. I'll just add that zombie radiation zones are actually part of the early game and that is where we expect all new players to go for loot. Bandit bases are meant to be sort of mid-game oriented with slightly better loot, however, both places can easily be cleared by new players. This is intentional and it is a very important part of keeping the loot fair. Everybody has the exact same odds of getting every single item in the game.

Yes I am aware they're apart of early game, I just wanted to suggest reducing a few drops like explosives which add to the powercreep, that's why I wanted those places a little more balanced for specific people. Regardless, they can be kept like this but I sincerely hope the drops gets addressed eventually.
I also wanted to equalize them both in terms of drops, make each have unique drops over the other and also bring a little more challenge for both but that's something worthy of another thread.

I hope this server gets better and better and I hope eventually us lone wolves can also thrive around .

With best regards,
Excalibur

 

[bob7l]

RustV2 was built on the basis that you shouldn't be able to lone wolf your way to the top. We want factions, allies, and wars. It's really a gamemode that forces you to either bring your friends into it, or join another faction to survive.

Why is OP armor even available and what's the point of it? Well OP armor has a massive vulnerability to swords, and combo's from guns. You're forced to truly test your skills in a 1v1 and take major risks. Should you medkit, or should you try to take out the other guy before he medkits? Sometimes yes, it comes down to whoever's helmet pops first, but that simply means you're playing too safe. I've seen lightred's take out bold red's simply by outplaying them in duels. I'd say the endgame to RUST is to get a completely maxed set, and a maxed swords. Everyone always wants to be the most powerful, and we've given the ability to do just that.

C4 mechanics are once more related to team size. You as a lone wolf shouldn't be able to single handily demolish an entire faction with C4. If that were the case, then why even join a faction. Joining a faction allows for you to join your bases together, and easily reinforce the platform/walls with iron-plated or titanium-plated. Believe it or not, an entire stack of C4 can be farmed by a major faction in just under a week. People need the ability to insure their items are safe otherwise there's little point in even building a base.

In terms of looting, you should, as a new player, only be looting zombie infested radiation towns/dungeons. They'll drop schematics and other useful materials for beginners. There's also an event called "The zone" that'll open up a route to a major city for you to quickly loot as much as possible before it closes. After you've gotten say Kevlar armor, you'd then move onto bandits which have a chance to drop better kevlar, and even OP armor. Looting bandit dungeons increases this chance even more. Keep in mind though, all this looting can mostly be avoided by simply gathering fat and using vending machines or by joining an established faction.

Most of what you've said has actually already been done on our legacy RUST server. It was a fun server, but never had very large teams or wars. I'll most likely be porting RAC to it sooner or later so the hacks wont be out of hand. Rust HC is for sure more of a lonewolf server that gives no benefits for being in a major faction.

 

[Excalibur]

RustV2 was built on the basis that you shouldn't be able to lone wolf your way to the top. We want factions, allies, and wars. It's really a gamemode that forces you to either bring your friends into it, or join another faction to survive.

Why is OP armor even available and what's the point of it? Well OP armor has a massive vulnerability to swords, and combo's from guns. You're forced to truly test your skills in a 1v1 and take major risks. Should you medkit, or should you try to take out the other guy before he medkits? Sometimes yes, it comes down to whoever's helmet pops first, but that simply means you're playing too safe. I've seen lightred's take out bold red's simply by outplaying them in duels. I'd say the endgame to RUST is to get a completely maxed set, and a maxed swords. Everyone always wants to be the most powerful, and we've given the ability to do just that.

C4 mechanics are once more related to team size. You as a lone wolf shouldn't be able to single handily demolish an entire faction with C4. If that were the case, then why even join a faction. Joining a faction allows for you to join your bases together, and easily reinforce the platform/walls with iron-plated or titanium-plated. Believe it or not, an entire stack of C4 can be farmed by a major faction in just under a week. People need the ability to insure their items are safe otherwise there's little point in even building a base.

In terms of looting, you should, as a new player, only be looting zombie infested radiation towns/dungeons. They'll drop schematics and other useful materials for beginners. There's also an event called "The zone" that'll open up a route to a major city for you to quickly loot as much as possible before it closes. After you've gotten say Kevlar armor, you'd then move onto bandits which have a chance to drop better kevlar, and even OP armor. Looting bandit dungeons increases this chance even more. Keep in mind though, all this looting can mostly be avoided by simply gathering fat and using vending machines or by joining an established faction.

Most of what you've said has actually already been done on our legacy RUST server. It was a fun server, but never had very large teams or wars. I'll most likely be porting RAC to it sooner or later so the hacks wont be out of hand. Rust HC is for sure more of a lonewolf server that gives no benefits for being in a major faction.

I completely understand all your points. And if what you just said about armor is true, then it is pretty excellent. I haven't been on that end yet as I am fairly new so I just based the armor thing on videos available on the website.
About the c4s thing, I don't know why but you and youssof are giving me the impression I worded it all wrong, I didn't ask for changes in order for bases to be easier to raid, It was meant more to reduce the amount of c4s available to the public, but that'd leave bases that are too strong to be raided, hence I tried to come up with a system that could work with less c4s.
Anyway it was worth a try. Will give a few suggestions in the upcoming days about other things.

With best regards,
Excalibur